So I was going looking through the Apoc book trying to get some ideas for a later game and started comparing some point costs from the IG stuff and Nids. As I was looking around I came across the Hydra Flak-Tank.Now as an eldar player this thing is the bane of my existence. It can pretty much instance kill anything in my army, has a 72 inch range, is twin linked, and can be fielded in groups of 3. Holy Crap :P
And when I've gone against it I've thought to myself wow that is just a mean unit and how many points is that?!?
Well it turns out that in the new IG book it's all of 75 points. Now I know what I can get for 75 points in an Eldar army and it's not much. Now I'm looking through the Apoc book and boom there is the Hydra Flak-Tank, and it's 200 points.
Now that seems to be a bit more reasonable for that kind of tank, why is it they decided to drop it by over half in points costs? Who knows... but it does seem to be on the cheap side for what it is able to do in my opinion.
I could even see it around the 150 point range, but compared to what other armies get, and then just what's in the IG dex it's very cheap. I mean for 20 extra points you can take one of these instead of a chimera.
-CKR
AV 12/10/10 maybe? It only works where there's armour saturation as any focused anti-tank fire quickly puts them out of action, especially in squadrons.
ReplyDeleteI think it's more than they're highly suited to the modern mech-heavy environment than actually stupendous in and of themselves
Take it easy there, rough rider. 150 points is waaaay too much for something that's a one trick pony. Honestly, the Eldar stuff costs so much because it's so freaking powerful. Compare the lowly Hydra to your Wave Serpents and Falcons, with their AV14-defeating Bright Lances, spirit stones, and so on. This is just a mobile autocannon platform pure and simple, and its BS 3 means it needs the twin-linking to hit the broad side of a barn. Last I checked, those AC's aren't going to breach AV14, ever.
ReplyDeleteChimeras? They're the suck of troop transports (only slightly above Rhinos) with their 10 side armor and laughable turret weapons. That said, they're taxis for shuttling troops around, and the Hydra has no transport capacity, unlike your double-duty pulling Falcons. The IG's next equivalent to that is the Vendetta, and yet again, because of their advanced tech, the Eldar get the better part of the deal with the Wave Serpent.
Admittedly, the Eldar codex sucks in 5th edition, but honestly the space elves get so many bells and whistles compared to the IG it's not even funny. If you don't like Hydras, then shoot them. Just remember their friends are equally, if not more dangerous. This brings us to the Hydra's other battlefield role: it draws fire.
@ ian_wookieman - Oh I realize that it only works when IG are running lots of armor, but I think that is the theme these days, armor armor armor ;)
ReplyDelete@ #2501 - Sorry sorry... once in a while you've just got to rant ;)
But let me counter what you've mentioned as being a 1 trick pony. I find that the Hydra is anything but a 1 trick pony, it does great at take down anything armor 13 and down. Sure it might only be able to glance armor 13 but with as many shots as it has it sure has a good chance of doing so and keeping the enemy from at least shooting.
At armor 12 and down it can then start penetrating and ignore skimmers and jetbikes cover saves for moving flat out, now this is just crazy mean to the two eldar armies out there who currently have to rely on Mech to succeed in a game.
Now say there are no vehicles to shoot at, it can still do an ammazing job at shooting or and MC... it will wound any Nid MC on a 3+ and will wound pretty much anything else on a 2+.
It also has a 72 inch range, twice the distance of a normal autocannon so it can deny lanes of movement because it can pretty much reach out and touch you from anywhere (as long as it can see of course)
And then you throw a heavy bolter on there too and you've got 4 str 7 and 3 str 5 shots for cheaper then anything else in the game.
As for being BS 3 I'm very familiar with that ;) playing eldar I'm also BS 3 and our Falcons unfortunantly do not get the comfort of twin linked weapons and cost a lot more. Same as Wave Serpents, there longest range is 36 inches which means that the Hydras will have 2-3 turns of shooting before they even get in range to return fire.
And yes my falcon does have transport capability but costs a minimum of 125 points, no twin linked weapons and is also armor 12 ;) Throw on the mandatory Holo-Fields and improve the weapon and give it stones you're now looking at 175 points for the Falcon which can still only shoot 1 weapon when moving over 6 inches and will miss with 1 of those shoots and has a 50/50 chance of glancing a hydra, Hydras return fire and odds are the falcon will drop.
But like you said Eldar are a bit behind right now and the bells and whistles are barely keeping those grav engines running :D So I still think that 125-150 would've been a much more appropriate point cost for the hydra.
-CKR
As an IG player I don't really see the big deal with people crying about the Hydra. Sure it has a lot of reach out and touch ya ability, but generally if it can hit your light tanks, it can be hit back. Normal AutoCannons are 48" range and on a 4x6 Table the Hydra doesn't give you a considerable increase over the normal AC. Granted it can shoot from one side to the other, but again, typical engagements aren't that far away.
ReplyDeleteFor 75 points I can take a vehicle that can be shaken and not be able to fire from turn one or I can take a Hvy Weapons Squad, giving me 3 AC shots and 6 wounds. That squad is a little harder to take out and not shoot each turn.
I don't think many things have a problem with getting side shots on chimerae so that AV 10 is pretty easy to mess up. The main reason I've seen that normal Chimera survive so long is there are other high priority targets out there. The Multi-laser and HB is not a game winner in most games.
I'm thinking the Hydra is more a one trick pony then people realize and right now not many have faced it so they seem more powerful then they are.
@ #2501 - "Chimeras? They're the suck of troop transports (only slightly above Rhinos) with their 10 side armor and laughable turret weapons."
ReplyDeleteLets do a quick compare:
- IG squad gets a troop transport - Chimera
-- AV 12/10/10
-- BS 3
-- Troop Transport 12
-- Multi-laser (3x str 6 ap 6)
-- Heavy Bolter (3x str 5 ap 4)
-- Squad transported can fire out of top - 5 models can shoot
-- 55 points
- Eldar get a Wave Serpent
-- AV 12/12/10
-- Force Shield (weapons over str 8 drop to str 8)
-- Fast Skimmer
-- BS 3
-- Troop Transport 12
-- TL scat laser (4x str 6 ap 6)
-- shurican cannon (3x str 6 ap 5)
-- No fire points
-- 125 points
I would have to say overall its a wash. For more than twice the price Eldar get the force shield (fantastic against melta) and fast skimmer. Eldar lose out on fire points and AP. In addition, this is the only dedicated transport option Eldar have. I guess the real question is, are 2 chimera's equal to 1 wave serpent?
Comparing the Hydra tank... the closest Eldar have is the War Walker. A hydra puts out 4 twin-linked shots (str 7 ap 4) plus 3 more heavy bolter shots (str 5 ap 4)for 75 points. Armor all around is 12/10/10. Eldar war walker can put out 8 scatter laser shots (str 6 ap 6) with armor 10/10/10.
The problem is this, the Hydra will hit more often (twin linked), has a better AP, and better front armor. All this for 75 points to the war walkers 60 points. Plus the range... which makes the hydra far better.